William Dean Howells and Henry James as young writers
English 3332 students:
For our Friday, January 29, blog, please post a comment of at least two well-developed paragraphs comparing and contrasting Julia Tinker and Daisy Miller, the female protagonists of "A Romance of Real Life" and "Daisy Miller," respectively. Please use as least two quotations from each story (in other words, at least four total) in your comment.
After you post your comment, please reply in one well-developed paragraph to at least one of the other students' comments.
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Alternative topic for those who attended the film screening of Daisy Miller on Wednesday afternoon:
Rather than posting your comment in the blog, please email me (linda.kornasky@angelo.edu) a comment of at least two well-developed paragraphs about specific differences between the film version of Daisy Miller and the original short story. Please be specific and use quotes from the story to develop your answer.
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Reminders about upcoming reading: please remember to read the Mark Twain selections, pp. 53-55 and 60-69, in the textbook before Monday's class, and please read the poems by Twain on this web site link and here: link for additional poems by Twain.
Have a great weekend,
Dr. K
ReplyDeleteAlthough we are briefly introduced to Julia Tinker as opposed to the many times we read about Daisy Miller, we are able to see similarities in the girls. Both young ladies, when approached by men they did not know did not immediately shrink in fear of a forthcoming stranger, but patiently waited to see what the men wanted. Julia does not understand why a man at her door is asking for her, but she continues to stand in the doorway. ““My name’s Julia Tinker,” answered the maid, who rather had a disappointing face”…”Julia Tinker broke into a loud, hoarse laugh.” At first glance, Daisy seems to ignore Mr. Winterbourne, who has made acquaintance with her little brother. Inevitably she warms up to the man she just met, rather quickly. “The young girl (Daisy Miller) glanced over the front of her dress, and smoothed out a knot or two of ribbon”….”She turned to Winterbourne, blushing a little. “You won’t back out?” she said.” Daisy Miller had made an arrangement to go to a popular castle with the man she met moments ago. In a short conversation with a stranger of the opposite sex, Daisy Miller and Julia Tinker become comfortable with these men.
On the contrary, Daisy Miller and Julia Tinker lead very different lives. Julia is a house maid to a family that lives in the city and came from a broken family. The reader is not sure how her mother died, but she states “my father’s in State’s Prison.” , and her siblings are scattered in homes around the town. Daisy Miller is the exact opposite social class of Julia Tinker. Daisy comes from a family where they travel from America to England, and her little brother does not want to be educated because “he didn’t want a teacher travelling round with us.” In addition, Daisy’s father is a successfully rich business owner. Miss Tinker and Miss Miller may both have bubbly personalities but they come from two comparatively different worlds.
The similarities in the way in which both girls are approached by strange men is something I glanced over. This little details tells a lot about both of the characters. They are both somewhat independent and strong minded girls. This little detail of both of their character shows the change of the roles of women post war. Both of the characters are a strong representation of growing independence of women postwar.
DeleteI like the comparison you made between the girls with their respective meetings. They do both seem to have the same approach to talking to strange men and that same level of comfort once they get to know just enough about them. The ways they convey that comfortableness is certainly different, with Daisy's flirtatiousness and Julia's almost absentmindedness in the way she just stood there and picked apart a fly she caught as the others talked, but it does shed some light on how close they are personality-wise.
DeleteJulia Tinker and Daisy Miller are quite opposite in each of their stories. Daisy Miller is introduced to the reader right off the bat while it takes a little longer to physically meet Julia Tinker. Julia Tinker is introduced through the stories that her father tells and how he describes his daughter while Daisy Miller introduces herself and outwardly shows her personality. These women also have very different personalities. Julia's father announces that "Julia is a good girl." In contrast, Daisy's brother states that "my sister ain't the best!" Just from a third party the reader can tell the difference between these two ladies.
ReplyDeleteThe two women also lead very different lives. Julia Tinker takes up duties as a maid while Daisy Miller just has fun and flirts her way through Europe. Daisy Miller takes pride in her appearance and doesn't take things too seriously while Julia Miller has had to take a role within her household because of her father. Now, while these women are mostly dissimilar, these are some similarities a reader can find. Both women are very strong willed and lead their lives the way they want to. They may come from different social classes, they both make the best of their situations.
While I do agree with your statement that both women are strong willed, it is necessary to note that Daisy is the one living the way they want to with more freedom, whereas Julia is fighting to keep her independence in order to live a peaceful life. Julia is making the best of her situation by hiding from her lying, bigamist father, and working as a maid with kind masters. Daisy on the other hand, is living off her family's wealth. Therefore, her situation is more of her social rebellion, and thus her way of dealing with the issues is to ignore the rumors and stay innocent.
DeleteI really like that you brought up the aspect of the two girls being defined by their families and how that reflects upon their own personalities.
I really like that you mention them coming from kinds of life. Their different social classes probably has something to do with how they are perceived by men, in my opinion. I think that's a very relevant distinction between Daisy Miller and Julia Tinker.
DeleteOne of the most obvious differences between Julia Tinker and Daisy miller is their background. Julia Tinker is more of a representation of the middle class while Daisy Miller is a representation of the upper class. Julia as a character represents the middle class in a way in which makes here relatable to a vast majority of the middle class at this time. She is also a strong representation of what women were going through at this time. Women started to work more outside of the house. The reader becomes aware of Julia being in the working class when the Contributor tracks her down and discovers her working as a maid. “The door was opened by a young girl of fifteen or sixteen, whom he knew at a glance for the second mate’s daughter”(Howells). Giving Julia a job while her father was imprisoned makes Julia’s character even more relevant and relatable to the time period.
ReplyDeleteDaisy on the other hand is a look at American girls through the eyes of Europeans.
Daisy is portrayed as a flirt, and this characteristic made her very controversial. This is why Winterbourne had such a struggle with her being a flirt. During this time is was more important that a woman flirt with only the intention of marriage. In the story when Winterbourne is in Mrs. Walker’s victoria they are discussing Daisy. Mrs Walker is naming off all of the things that Daisy Miller has been doing while she is staying here such as “Flirting with any man she could pick up; sitting in corners with mysterious Italians; dancing all the evening with the same partners; receiving visits at eleven o’clock at night”(James 123). Daisy is an exaggeration of upper-class American women, and the European way in which American women were seen. With Howells giving the reader a real sense of the middle class woman, and James giving the reader a sort of exaggerated view of the American upper-class. Both were able to capture a sense of women’s lives post-war.
I agree. Both women got to experience life after the war. Julia had to be separated from her family after her mothers death and get a job as a maid to survive. Meanwhile, Daisy is set out to be "an American girl". Europeans viewed American women as flirtatious and not respecting themselves enough to flirt with just about anyone without the intention of marriage.
DeleteI like the idea that you spoke about how James and Howell each took a look into the life of their idea of an upper class woman (Daisy), and the idea of a middle class woman (Julia). It could be that these depictions are over exaggerated to make these stories a success
DeleteIn the story, "A Romance of Real Life," we meet the young and hardened Julia Tinker. Although we may be naturally inclined to expect her character to be a sweet young lass anxiously waiting for her father's return, we instead discover that she is a hard working chamber maid that is hiding from her convict father. Upon the first mention of her father, she shows no "visible emotion," and when she realizes that her father is looking for her, she "[breaks] into a loud, hoarse laugh." She is apethetic to such a startling revelation because it is no different from the other hardships her life has already encountered. At this point, all she can do is laugh about it.
ReplyDeleteDaisy Miller, in her self-titled short story, is quite different from Julia. She is a young woman free from hardships, spending her time touring Europe, carefree and happy. "Daisy Miller was extremely animated; she was in charming spirits." Mr. Winterbourne is completely enamored by this young woman. "Never, indeed, since he had grown old enough to appreciate things, had he encountered a young American girl of so pronounced a type as this." Daisy was unafraid to speak her mind, thinking nothing of how others perceived her flirtatious lifestyle. Similarly, Julia is not fearful of her father's search for her. Though these women come from two entirely different lifestyles (one extravagant, the other destitute), they are both independent and strong-willed.
Jesse,
DeleteI was definitely expecting Julia to be really excited to be reconnected with her father! Neither of the girls showed much emotion. Mr. Winterbourne could never tell if Daisy was offended or flattered by his actions toward her. I think another similarity is that both young women were quite outspoken. They did not mind letting us know how they felt about the situations they were in (even if it didn't show on their face). They are so different, yet so similar.
Miranda
The first difference between Julia Tinker and Daisy Miller that came to mind as I was reading this prompt was their difference in lifestyles. Daisy Miller is a young woman who comes from a wealthy, well-to-do family. Randolph, Daisy's younger brother, claims "my father is rich, you bet!" Whereas, Julia Tinker's father is not quite so well off. The narrator of "A Romance of Real Life" describes Jonathan Tinker as a "gaunt figure of forlorn and curios smartness," and goes on to say that his face portrayed a "harsh two days' growth of a beard and a single bloodshot eye." Jonathan Tinker's description alone does not exactly paint the picture of rich, business man like Daisy Miller's father.
ReplyDeleteWhile they are very different in terms of wealth, the two young woman are somewhat similar. Both young women are immovable in the presence of strangers/men. While Daisy was very sociable, the narrator stated multiple times that Daisy never blushed, seemed embarrassed, or even offended by anything Mr. Winterbourne said. When Mr. Winterbourne first Daisy he "risked an observation upon the beauty of the view." Mr. Winterbourne was trying not to be embarrassed, and he realized Daisy was not at all embarrassed. The narrator stated that Daisy "was evidently neither offended nor fluttered." The same could be said for Julia Tinker. When the Contributor showed up at her door asking about her father she showed a "stare of helpless inquiry, but no other visible emotion." Both Daisy and Julia do not wear their heart on their sleeve, so to speak. It was hard to determine how exactly they felt or what they were thinking.
Daisy in particular does seem to give a great deal of effort to conceal the hurt she undoubtedly feels at the hands of Mrs. Walker, etc. She also may have a pathological need for approval, which approval she paradoxically loses from her peers even as she tries to acquire positive attention from the foreigners such as Mr. Giovanelli. Julia also seems to conceal the hurt of her father's abandonment of the family by being tough and cynical. Watching her mother die from hard work and her siblings scattered can't have left her with a great sense of optimism yet she tries to cope by laughing about her father.
DeleteIt is apparent that Mr. Winterbourne focuses on carefully crafting his statements to Daisy, trying to not embarrass either of them, yet Daisy feels free to speak her mind at all times. She does not worry about the rules of society like her counterparts do. Without these concerns, nothing said seems to bother her. The same can be said of Julia, who will laugh and act with "heightened amusememt" in front of a stranger and the lady of the house. She spends more time catching a fly and "plucking it to pieces" than crafting her statements. These two women seam to have no problem speaking their minds.
DeleteBoth ladies from each story have their own individual differences. At the beginning of "Daisy Miller", you automatically meet Daisy. Her brother introduces her as "Here comes my sister!" cried the child, in a moment. "She's an American girl." Then continues to explain to Winterbourne " My sister ain't the best!" the child declared " She's always blowing at me." In "A Romance of Real Life", we do not meet Julia Tinker to late in the story. Her father talks about his wife and family since he has been gone for 2 years at sea. Throughout the story, the contributor finds Julia as a maid working for the Hapfords and explains to her that her father had returned from his voyage. "Julia Tinker broke into a loud, hoarse laugh. "Yes, it's him, sure enough." And then, as if the joke were too good to keep: "Miss Hapford, Miss Hapford, father's got out. Do come here!" she called into a back room." It was almost like she knew it was her father because he lied.
ReplyDeleteAlso, both girls differ in their background. Daisy Miller seems to be of the upper class when James describes her. "She was dressed in a white muslin, with a hundred frills and flounces, and knots of pale-coloured ribbon. She was bare-headed; but she balanced in her a hand a large parasol, with a deep border of embroidery; and she was strikingly, admirably pretty." When we meet Julia, all that is acclaimed is shes a maid and when she opened the door " a young girl of fifteen or sixteen, whom he knew at a glance for the second mate's daughter."
Julia Tinker from "A Romance in Real Life" and Daisy Miller in "Daisy Miller are two female protagonist in their respective tales. Although they share being the main character in their tales, each of these ladies hold a unique amount of differences. Julia Tinker, whom the audience is given a brief background over, is seen as an average working young woman. She does not come from money, and in fact has a sad family background. Her father abandoned her mother and her family, causing her mother to work harder to provide for her children. Julia's mother sadly passes away. What is most notable about Julia is that although she is young, she seems resistance to the perils of the world. When the Contributor explained to Julia that her father was out on a sea voyage, Julia's reaction was "...a stare of helpless inquiry, but no other visible emotion." (Howells 5). Jonathan Tinker also describes his daughter has "a good girl" (Howells 2) when talking to Mr. Hapford.
ReplyDeleteDaisy Miller is shown to the audience of her tale as being an overbearing flirt. Daisy obviously comes from money, because her and her family are New Yorkers who frequent Europe a lot. Winterbourne's aunt disdains Daisy stating that she is "...flirting with any man she could pick up..." (James 123). Daisy is also someone who is seen has self-absorbed a bit, but one who likes to do whatever and have a leisure time with whom ever, all the while Winterbourne is combating with the idea of is she is a good girl or not.
I like what you had to say about Julia Tinker not showing much emotion with the thought of her father being out of prison. Both characters hide emotion very well like with Daisy Winterbourne can never read her emotions or intentions and so he stays his distance and its not till after her death that he realizes that she was truly innocent.
DeleteJulia Tinker and Daisy Miller are different as well as alike.
ReplyDeleteFirst, Julia has an understandably calloused attitude after being abandoned by a father who engaged in bigamy and went to prison. Julia expresses her contempt for her father in the scene which Howells records as follows: “‘O, he’s found ‘em has he?’ cried Julia, with heightened amusement. ‘Then he’ll have me next, if I don’t pack and go.’” (Emphasis mine). Daisy, by contrast, has a naivete that seems real but also appears to be a form of denial. For example, on page 101 Winterbourne notes “Daisy Miller looked extremely innocent.” However, on page 127, after Mrs. Walker snubbed her, “Daisy turned away, looking with a pale, grave face at the cirlce near the door; Winterbourne saw that, for the first moment, she was too much shocked and puzzled even for indignation.” She later seems to deny such treatment by asking “What will they do to me?” So while it's not necessarily denial it could be.
Second, they are alike in that both pursue their own course regardless of what their parents want. Julia is willing to “pack and go” if it means avoiding an exploitive father who “gave no earthly reason [to the contributor] for supposing his story was not true, and Daisy likewise continues on her flirtatious escapades against the disapproval of her mother and her fellow Americans and ultimately to her own ruin.
Daisy and Julia do both go against what their parents have in mind for them. Though for two entirely different reason. They are both strong willed and determined. They see the world is at their feet and will do anything they can remain independent. They see their parents wishes as obsolete to their way of life.
DeleteJulia Tinker and Daisy Miller may seem like opposites at first but they do appear to share many similarities as well. Daisy Miller is what appears to be as a stereotypical upper-class American young lady. She is young, says what she pleases, does what she wants, when she wants and spends time with her gentlemen friends as she chooses and sees no harm in her actions. " Or was she also a designing, an audacious, an unscrupulous young person?" (James 101). While on the other hand Julia Tinker is a maid, who comes from a broken home that consists of having younger siblings either dead or scattered about town, to a mother who is dead and a father who was in prison. She was poor and indifferent and not an outspoken woman of high society such as Daisy Miller. However, in both characters there are motions of innocence or rather naivety. " His delicate blending shades of artifice and naivete" (Howells).
ReplyDeleteWhile these women can be seen as very different one factor that ties them together is the fact that they both have absent fathers in their lives. Julia Tinker's father has been in prison "My father hasn't been to sea for a good many years..., my fathers in State's Prison" (Howells). While Daisy Miller's father is an successful businessman who must attend to business elsewhere, and who really doesn't care for travelling through Europe anyway. "My father's in Schenectady. He's got a big business. My father's rich you bet (James 99). Another way in which the lives of the two girls are interconnected is the idea of their lives being cut short in a sense. Julia tinker had to grow up fast because of her broken home and begin working. She was faced with a hard life at such a tender age. While Daisy Miller's was cut short to her catching the Roman Fever and dying. Nonetheless she died as a consequence of doing what she wanted, with whom she wanted, and when she wanted. A truly independent, risky woman. The epitome of an European stereotype of a young, single American lady.
I love how instead of juxtaposing Julia and Daisy, you decided to instead reveal how similar the two are. While the two young ladies are quite different in social status and that is quite apparent, instead you mentioned how the two have absent fathers in their lives. Maybe this could explain Daisy's continuous flirtations with everyone since a father is there to show her how men should treat women?
DeleteIn the short story, "A Romance of Real Life," Julia Tinker is a strong willed and hard working chambermaid. She is of the middle class and during this time period women of the middle class had to work outside of home in order to make sufficient needs for the family and herself. Julia Tinker has gone through a rougher life than Daisy Miller. Julia's father has recently been released from imprisonment and is now on the search for his daughter. Instead of anxiously waiting for his return, Julia is hiding at a residence working as a chamber maid. When he finds her she has a "a stare of helpless inquiry, but no visible emotion," therefore she absolutely in no state of excitement of discovering her father has come to find her. This reveals the struggles of the middle class, her father has been released from prison to find her in order for his daughter to support him. On the other hand, Daisy Miller differs from Julia due to her higher status.
ReplyDeleteDaisy Miller is a rich, and attention seeking young girl that gets everything handed to her. Due to her rich status, unlike Julia, Daisy does not have to work or even use her good looks as a means for a suitable marriage. Instead, Daisy uses her looks to flirt and occupy the attention of any male around her, "[she] flirted back with a pretty little cry and a shudder from the edge o the oubliettes." During this time period, it was extremely controversial for a woman of her age to be aquatinted with many gentlemen. However, Daisy easily goes by without a care in the world and continues her flirting. As opposed to Julia, who is of the middle class, Daisy does not need to worry about what is right or wrong, since she has wealth she can easily do as she pleases. Julia is more relatable due to her middle class status and her struggles she faces with society, her father, and life.
The differences between the upper and middle class are very nicely explained in your response. It's crazy how completely different two lives are just because of a difference in money. And it is very unfair, in my opinion, that Daisy's life is so trouble-free and she is able to do anything she wishes and get practically anything she wants, while Julia is forced to work as a maid and live practically in hiding from her own father.
DeleteThough we are not given much information about Julia Tinker, we can speculate from the reading that she is in fact not a young girl patiently and excitedly awaiting the return of her father because his absence has caused her grief. Instead we see that she is a vulnerable, emotionless working woman who dreads the thought of her father’s return because she knows the consequence will be that he takes her and the young children along with the hard earned money she has made. To compare Julia’s life with Daisy Miller’s is like comparing a queen to a maid. However, they become similar when we realized that Daisy is a determined young girl. Daisy has lived a hardship free life where she is free to go and do what she pleases. She does not live in fear of what is to come by rather rejoices in it. She is portrayed as a very big flirt who in the Europeans eyes is careless and silly.
ReplyDeleteThe two become one when we realize that Daisy Miller does all of the things she does without worry because she is a strong independent woman who is not influenced in any way by other people’s opinions. Julia had to become a strong willed independent woman when her mother passed away and she was left to fend for herself. Both did not and do not need men in their lives. They take pride in their self-determination.
When comparing Julia Tinker and Daisy Miller the first difference that comes to mind is the different ways they were raised. Daisy was raised in a wealthier manner than Julia was. Randolph, Daisy’s younger brother even shouts, “My fathers rich, you bet!” When we first meet Julia Tinker she is working as a housemaid, her father had left years before leaving their family to fend for themselves. When Julia calls out “Miss Hapford, Miss Hapford, father’s got out”, it seems she has gotten a big trust for the family. Daisy Miller had both of her parents and at the time of the story was travelling around to different places in Europe.
ReplyDeleteAnother difference is their personalities. Although Daisy knows what she is doing when she is flirting with Winterborne, as well as teasing any other gentlemen around her, she comes off a little naïve. Her brother and her are given a life of luxury and nothing in her world can be rocked off balance while Julia Tinker needed to grow up around the age of 16. Julia’s father knows this as well claiming her to be “a good girl, and when I find her I’m all right”, he knows she will be off working and will take care of him. Daisy and Randolph are being taken care of by multiple people.
Julia Tinker, from "A Romance of Real Life," and Daisy Miller, from "Daisy Miller" are seemingly two completely different characters from one another. Julia Tinker works as a maid and does not have much to claim as her own. She also appears to have a very bitter heart, from everything she has had to go through because of her father, she even listens to the contributor's story with a sense of "heightened amusement." It is obvious that her heart has been hardened by the troubles of the world. Daisy, on the other hand, appears to have almost no troubles at all. Her family is wealthy, and she does as she pleases, is very open and talkative to everyone, especially men, as if she had never been betrayed before. She is even described as "completely uncultivated" in the world
ReplyDeleteHowever, they do share something in common. Both Julia and Daisy are very sure of themselves. Daisy presents this confidence with the men she hangs around, flirting with them and saying whatever she pleases, and Julia shows her confidence by the way she simply does what she has to do without complaint, leaving her place of work so that her father doesn't find her. She almost makes it seem as though she finds it amusing, as if "the joke were too good to keep."
In both William Dean Howell’s “A Romance of Real Life” and Henry James’ “Daisy Miller,” two women of completely different background and social class are featured. In “A Romance of Real Life” Julia Tinker, a maid with “a rather disappointing face” is being searched for by her convict father. “Daisy Miller” features a “strikingly, admirably pretty” young girl. Their physical differences are not the only differences for these two young women.
ReplyDeleteBoth come from homes with absent fathers, though the root of the absence is a very important distinction. Daisy Miller’s father is gone because he is working back home while his family travels Europe. Julia Tinker’s father has been in prison for bigamy for the last two years. Julia is a maid, and there is little known of her, other than she is a “good girl.” Daisy, on the other hand is “very unsophisticated” and looked down upon by the higher society that she is a part of because of her consistent flirting with young foreign men by herself.
While "A Romance of Real Life" doesn't make enough mention of Julia Tinker to get a good character description of her, it can be assumed she's at the very least as open when speaking as Daisy Miller is, as she was said to have "broke into a loud, hoarse laugh" upon learning of her father's return and that he had found her siblings. The latter case implies she may also be indifferent or show disdain towards her siblings, a trait Daisy may also share to some degree as shown during her first meeting with Winterbourne in the company of her brother, whom she told to be quiet as he threw pebbles "about Winterbourne's ears" and who paid her no mind when she suggested he ask Winterbourne his name before saying more of their family.
ReplyDeleteAs far as their differences go, their circumstances are naturally the most obvious, with Daisy and her family being rich and obviously well-travelled, while Julia is separated from her parents and siblings and lives in someone else's care. Their mannerisms are also very different, as Daisy Miller moves and speaks in a style that suits her status, while Julia was noted with catching a fly and "plucking it to pieces" as the others continued talking, an almost barbaric act from perspective of a member of Daisy's social standing.