F. Scott Fitzgerald and his daughter
English 3332 students:
For your blog of Friday, March 11, please post a comment of two well-developed paragraphs comparing and contrasting the symbolism attached to Honoria and Barbara in, respectively, F. Scott Fitzgerald's "Babylon Revisited," (710-27), and Edith Wharton's "Roman Fever" (546-55). In your comment please include at least two quotations from each story.
After you post your comment, please reply to at least one of the other students' comments.
Have a relaxing and fun spring break,
Prof. K
In F. Scott Fitzgerald’s “Babylon Revisited” and Edith Wharton’s “Roman Fever,” the daughters of the central characters play a major role in both stories. The symbolism of each is exemplified in less of what they say or do, but more in who and why they are. Honoria in Fitzgerald’s work represents a lost youth to a recovering alcoholic. After seeing his little girl after so long apart, Charlie thinks, “A great wave of protectiveness went over him” (714). This protection he feels the need to shield his daughter with stems from his own insecurities of his past that caused him to make decisions that resulted in the demise of her mother. He wants to protect her in her youth so that he make cling to his own morality and sobriety. Later on, he ponders, “the desire of putting a little of himself into her before she crystallized utterly” (717). This youth that he spent in a drunken stupor, he wishes to prevent for her and instill, not his addictions, but his knowledge and lessons he has gained from them. The people he is surrounded by are too old, too late, or already learned in the life he has lived, and she represents the last untouched thing by his terrible past.
ReplyDeleteIn Wharton’s short story, Barbara, the daughter of Mrs. Ansley, represents an unpursued love in the cold nights gone by of Rome. The importance of Barbara is not fully understood until the end of the story after the confrontation of Mrs. Ansley’s infatuation with Delphin, the husband of her friend, Mrs. Slade. On learning that her friend wrote the message from Delphin to her, Mrs. Ansley states, “it was the only letter I had from him” (553). This love letter may have been the only parchment she had from the late Delphin, but it is not the only thing she has to remember him by. Barbara represents the love they shared in their one passionate night together, and he is within her every time she gazes upon her sociable daughter. The closing lines which reveal the truth of the matter, hold exceptional power. Mrs. Ansley states, “I had Barbara” (555). She had Barbara to remind her of Delphin, which continues even further to mean that she has Barbara and she has that memory of Delphin fresh in her mind and will until her final days.
Barbara is Mrs. Ansley's trophy, in a way. She is able to prove to Mrs. Slade that she has much, much more than she thinks she does to remember Delphin. Mrs. Slade is confident and set on the idea that Mrs. Ansley had nothing left of Delphin and what she did have was a joke-- it seemed that she wanted to make a fool out of Mrs. Ansley. Mrs. Ansley was able to proudly prove Mrs. Slade wrong by announcing that she "had Barbara."
DeleteBarbara and Honoria in "Roman Fever" and "Babylon Revisited," respectively, are each symbolic. They both have symbolism attached to them that represents far more than simply a character and they mean different things to the stories they are in.
ReplyDeleteIn F. Scott Fitzgerald's "Babylon Revisited," Honoria's symbolism is present even in her name. She represents honor and, even more than that, she represents Charlie's honor. Charlie wants his daughter and his honor back. After losing his family, getting Honoria back would be regaining his honor. After explaining to Marion how different he is now he has to tell himself. "Keep your temper... You don't want to be justified. You want Honoria" (719). He wants honor. He doesn't want to justify his actions, he doesn't want to defend himself. He knows he was wrong and acted foolishly, but he just wants his daughter back. "He wanted his child, and nothing was much good now, beside the fact. He wasn't young anymore, with a lot of nice thoughts and dreams to have by himself" (727). Having custody of Honoria again would mean more than just having his daughter back: it would mean him being in control again, he would have his honor.
In Edith Wharton's "Roman Fever," Barbara is also a symbolic character. She is the daughter of Mrs. Ansley. Mrs. Ansley had a relationship with her friend Mrs. Slade's husband. Barbara could represent honor, to a certain extent, like Honoria did. Mrs. Slade cunningly points out that Mrs. Ansley "...had him for twenty-five years. And [she] had nothing but that one letter that he didn't write" (555). Mrs. Ansley responds with "I had Barbara" (555). Barbara is Mrs. Ansley's defense. Mrs. Slade attempts to ruin what Mrs. Ansley had with Delphin by admitting to writing the letter and rubbing it in that she had nothing else. Barbara is the trophy for the relationship between Mrs. Ansley and Delphin. Barbara could also represent pride. When Mrs. Slade feels confident that she has no ties to Delphin: Mrs. Ansley has the opportunity to show off Barbara and her relationship with him.
These two characters, Honoria and Barbara, are both very symbolic. They could both represent honor in different ways. Honoria is honor that was lost and wanting to be regained. Barbara is honor that was, unknowingly, present all along. These two characters represent far more than a role in their respective stories.
I really enjoyed your response, especially your take on the symbolism of Honoria in Fitzgerald's text. Your insight was well supported and convinces me that you are completely right. On the subject of Barbara in Wharton's story, I found it difficult to see a clear symbolic meaning to Mrs. Ansley's daughter. I think after reading your response that there are multiple meanings to Barbara and each line connected to her can be used to support one's idea. It just remains up to the individual and their own reading.
DeleteI really like the idea that you didn't focus in the protagonist (which I myself did), you focused on their children in the story. I do believe that Honoria and Barbara play significant roles in their respective stories, because they are somewhat a focus of the protagonists''.
DeleteI like the idea that you came up with about Barbara being a trophy. I agree. I think that she was a living breathing memory of the enjoyable times she had when she was young.
DeleteI like how you paralleled "Honoria" with honor, representing Charlie's longing for honor in his life, as well as his daughter. A great way to look at Barbara as honor too, she is this throughout the whole story but irony reveals it in the end.
DeleteIn F. Scott Fitzgerald’s “Babylon Revisited” the father, Charlie is looking to get his daughter, Honoria, back to take care of her. Honoria is young and Charlie realizes that he wants to get her back to have him in his life, he wants “to get to know [her]” after being apart so long. Charlie had a drinking problem in the past and when his wife passed away, Honoria’s uncle and aunt took her into their custody while he got better and stopped drinking. Although, at the end of the story he does not end up getting his daughter, the way she badly wishes to be back with him is inspiring him to keep trying and not ruin the chance. Charlie “would come back some day… he wanted his child” Honoria is the driving force now in Charlie’s life and he holds her to that special relationship.
ReplyDeleteIn “Roman Fever” by Edith Wharton, the main characters are Jenny Slade and Barbara Ansley’s mothers and not the daughters but throughout the story, the reader finds out that Mrs. Slade is highly envious of Mrs. Ansley and how “brilliant” her daughter, Barbara, is. When Mrs. Ansley calls Barbara an angel after Jenny is called one, Mrs. Slade downgrades her daughter by saying Barbara has “rainbow wings”. Mrs. Slade even calls Barbara “dynamic” and envies the fact that Mrs. Ansley and her husband were able to create something so special. When the truth comes out about Mrs. Ansley and Mrs. Slades husband, Mrs. Ansley knows that she is envious of Barbara and uses it as an insult when she says “I had Barbara”.
Although Honoria and Barbara are different in many ways, they are similar in the sense that their parents realize their value in their lives. Charlie notices that Honoria is the most important thing in his life and will do anything to get her back while Mrs. Ansley realizes that Barbara is special and will use how close she is to her daughter to make Mrs. Slade even more envious.
I really liked the catty comments throughout Roman Fever. The undercuts and the jabs made it that much better when the ending line is said. Barbra had not been planned and might have been a terrible secret to bear but in the end her love of Barbra made it that much better for Mrs. Ansley to give that parting line. Mrs. Slade had never realized that all this time she was comparing her daughter to her daughters half sister, which probably made it all the worse.
DeleteHonoria Wales in Babylon Revisited by F. Scott Fitzgerald symbolizes many things to Charlie. Charlie is the father who lost his daughter due to a drinking problem. Honoria’s name alone could represent Charlie’s “honor” that he lost. Honoria is growing up very quickly and Charlie believes that he is losing time with his beloved daughter; he needs this time to be able to mold a little of himself into her. “ If we wait much longer I’ll lose my chance for a home, “ he shook his head, “I’ll simply lose her, don’t you see” (720)
ReplyDeleteIn Roman Fever by Edith Wharton that character Barbara also represents a sort of loss. Barbra is the only thing that Mrs. Ansley has of Delphin, her friend’s husband and one time lover. Barbra is the product of that one night; which we do not find out about until the end. When Mrs. Ansley and Mrs. Slade are discussing the night in question, Mrs. Slade is ripping into Mrs. Ansley about the affair and how Mrs. Ansley meant nothing and had nothing; Mrs. Ansley states, “I had Barbra” (555).
I like how you played with Honoria's name. I didn't realize that her name could suggest honor and that she is Charlie's lost honor that he is trying to regain. He doesn't want to lose her instead, he wants to rebuild his honor to prove he is a better person.
DeleteThe idea of time running out is in both stories. In "Babylon Revisited" Charlie has only a limited time before the home he longs for becomes a ship that has sailed. In "Roman Fever" there is the idea of the time for Mrs. Slade's daughter to be someone amazing and thus for Mrs. Slade to live through her daughter.
DeleteI completely agree with your use of Honoria's name. It is essential to Charlie's motives and is a main part of Honoria's symbolism. You could have built more with Barbara, and stressed the importance of Barbara as a mini triumph over her friend. Her exit is dramatized by this so it is defiance and triumph.
DeleteF. Scott Fitzgerald's "Babylon Revisited", and Edith Wharton's "Roman Fever" reveals the cognitive temperament of each protagonist.
ReplyDeleteIn "Babylon Revisited", the main character Charlie is a recovering alcoholic attempting to get his daughter back into his life. Towards the end, Charlie realizes his ways need to be cleaned up and so instead of going through with physically getting his daughter, he wants to "...send Honoria some things; he would send her a lot of things tomorrow. He thought rather angrily that this was just money...". It is revealed that his mental nature isn't stable enough (from character's perspective like Lincoln and Marion), and this plays into the theme of Charlie's Babylon being revisited. The Babylon for Charlie is his old ways, so when he is seeing a lot of his old friends in Paris, some he ignores, some he gives into and hangouts with.
Mrs. Slade and Mrs. Ansley, the two protagonist in "Roman Fever" reflect on their jealousies of one another through their daughters, and their growing up together. It is kept secret until Mrs. Slade reveals that she wrote a letter from her now deceased husband to Mrs. Ansley, who was infatuated with Mr. Slade while he was still alive. The letter was written in hopes that Mrs. Ansley would meet him in the collusion in Rome, where Mrs. Slade hoped that Mrs. Ansley would contract 'Roman Fever', has not to mess up the engagement of Mr. and Mrs. Slade. Although the women finally reveal past secrets to each other, the audience is introduced to their private thoughts of one another and how each protagonist clung to the other one in such a bitter sweet friendship because of what they physically had in common; being widowed and having daughters. There is a clear disdain for each other, thus at the end of the story Mrs. Ansley revealing that she has Barbara, the daughter Mrs. Slade wishes was her, almost as a revelation that Barbara is Mr. Slade and Mrs. Ansley's daughter.
Edith Wharton's, "Roman Fever" centralizes on two middle aged ladies, Mrs. Slade and Mrs. Ansley. Mrs. Slade has a young, beautiful vivacious daughter, Barbara, who has captured the attention of a young aviator. Barbara is full of life and it seems that Mrs. Slade is slightly jealous, "I- oh, noting. I was only thinking how your Babs carries everything before her" (550). Mrs. Slade could possibly wish that her daughter Jenny was more like Barbara. It isn't until the very end of the story of when we figure out that Barbara is the child of Delphin, Mrs. Slade's late husband. As a matter of fact, Mrs. Slade confronts Mrs. Ansley about her infatuation with Delphin and then tells her that she was the one to write her a letter from supposedly Delpin, "It was the only letter I had from him, " (553). Therefore, the importance of Barbara and her symbolism is in fact that Mrs. Ansley has more that pretend letter from Delphin, she has a daughter from him. As a result, the memory of Delphin is still reflected within Barbara which is highly more significant than a letter.
ReplyDeleteIn F. Scott Fitzgerald, "Babylon Revisited," Honoria plays a slightly different role than Barbara. They are both daughters to the protagonist and both are symbolic, however Honoria carries a different role. She is the daughter of Charlie who is a recovering alcoholic. His wife died due to illness that might have been caused by an arguement the two were having while he was intoxicated. Therefore, I believe Honoria carries the symbolism of hope and innocence. Charlie is seeking to regain custody of his daughter, however he must prove to her to her aunt that he is stable enough to do so. He wants to regain Honoria for his failed marriage he had wit his wife in hopes of proving for Honoria and taking care of her will bring peace of mind over his previous marriage. Also, he wants to be a better person and better dad. Honoria is so young and innocent that she doesn't fully understand why her father is away. He states, "the desire of putting a little of himself into her before she crystallized utterly," (717). Meaning, he has missed quite a bit of her life due to being constantly drunk, that her innocence she posses he wants her to keep but also use that against him to prove he is redeemed.
The symbolism of Honoria is exactly that! Charlie wants to prove to Honoria that he is finally ready to be her father again. He puts forth this type of courage to get his family back. He wants to get back his pride and "honor" since he lost it due to him being an alcoholic.
DeleteTwo comparisons between the symbolism attached to Honoria in "Babylon Revisited" and Barbara in "Roman Fever" can be made. The first is in how the parents sees their children, and the second is in how the children see their parents.
ReplyDeleteIn "Babylon Revisited" we see Charlie idolizing his daughter as the symbol of the ideal family life he had thrown away because of his debauched lifestyle and cruel treatment of his wife. For example, Charlie, in trying to convince Helen to give him Honoria, says "I'm awfully anxious to have a home." Honoria also is a reminder of Charlie's deceased wife and his regret over how he treated her, as the author notes "He made plans, vistas, futures for Honoria and himself, but suddenly he grew sad, remembering all the plans he and Helen had made." Thus Honoria is a symbol both of the home Charlie had thrown away and of the wife who, perhaps because of his actions, had not survived to help make that home a reality.
In "Roman Fever," Barbara is a symbol of the contrast between girlish youthfulness and old age for her mother Mrs. Ansley. This is illustrated by how Barbara says mockingly "Let's leave the young things to their knitting." Barbara is also the symbol of Mrs. Ansley's victory over her best friend who is also her rival. When it's revealed that Mrs. Ansley and Mrs. Slade were in love with Mrs. Slade's husband, Mrs. Ansley plays the trump card when she declares "I had Barbara." Thus Barbara is both a reminder of her mother's bygone youth and vitality but also a a triumphant symbol of her ultimate triumph over her "best friend.
In summary, these stories picture the daughters in terms of what their parents had or could have had, as well as symbols of past triumphs or failures. Honoria is both a symbol of a delayed but possible ideal and a reminder of her father's failure. Barbara is a symbol of her mother's past both as a reminder of the y outh she has lost as well as a reminder of her victory over her best friend and rival.
I wish you had expanded a tad more on Barbara's role outside of being a point of victory for Ansley, because that is an interesting point you make with that quote. Whether it's a joke or she sees some sort of immaturity in the two women, she clearly talks with some sort of superiority, which might, in fact, translate into the second point. The way she appears to be a "leader" over the other children as they play, this could also be a reference to her mother and Slade's rivalry, with her superiority representing Ansley's triumph that you spoke of in conceiving her with Delphin over Slade's long marriage to Delphin.
DeleteF. Scott Fitzgerald’s “Babylon Revisited” tells a story of a recovering alcoholic named Charlie trying to regain custody of his daughter Honoria. Page 727 states “But he wanted his child, and nothing was much good now, beside the fact.” Charlie sobers up and does his best to gain the attention of his sweet Honoria. On the contrary, it is quite obvious that the only characteristics the reader seems to know about Barbara in Edith Wharton’s “Roman Fever”, are those through the eyes of her mother. Mrs. Ansley states she “had more edge” than she ever had. In a humble attempt to stick up for her daughter while talking to her friend, Mrs. Slade, Mrs. Ansley says “Babs is an angel too.” Here we are left with two women trying to build up their daughters while at the same time discussing a letter that was written. We find out the letter was written by Mrs. Slade, supposedly from her husband, to Mrs. Ansley. Once Mrs. Slade finds out Mrs. Ansley responded to the letter, she uncouthly states “after all, I had everything, for twenty five years. And you had nothing but that letter he didn’t write.” To which Mrs. Ansley states, “I had Barbara.”
ReplyDeleteAfter this summary-shifting line, Barbara then becomes the symbol of lost love, but still stands for something honorable and pure. Honoria, in the same way, represents the love Charlie has lost in his life. From the death of his wife, to alcoholism, he longs for something pure and filled with love-being his daughter.
To Charlie, Honoria is a symbol of courage. When he is meeting with her and Marion’s family for the first time in ten months he “drew confidence from his daughter.” (Fizgerald 713) She is his confidence and his hope. He is trying to be a better father and a better person because he wants to be better for her.
ReplyDeleteFor Mrs. Ansley, Barbara is a symbol of her victory over Mrs. Slade. She represents a better time in her life that can be remembered forever. Barbara is a living memory of her lover, and the triumph of having the man that she wanted if only for a little while. Both girls represent courage and confidence to both parents. However in the case of Honoria, she also represents the family life that Charlie had before. He is reminded of Helen's death and the shame that came with it.
Honoria and Barbara serve as memory triggers. For Mrs. Ansley, Barbara is both a positive reminder of past good and triumphs but also a reminder of the youth and the man she lost. Honoria reminds Charlie of the home and wife he lost while recalling the dream of a home that may yet be possible.
DeleteBoth, Honoria and Barbara, do not play the main roles in "Babylon Revisited" and "Roman Fever" but are very important characters in both stories. Barbara is the daughter of Mrs. Ansley in "Roman Fever" by Edith Wharton. Throughout the story, we hear how both daughters of Mrs. Ansley and Mrs. Slade resemble each other in their younger days. They go on to bicker at one another on whose daughter is better. Mrs. Ansley says "Babs is an angel too." with Mrs. Slade saying right after "Of course-of course! But she's got rainbow wings. Well, they're wandering by the sea with their young men; and here we sit...and it all brings back the past a little too acutely."(550). Although we do not find out the importance of Barbara until the end of the short story, I like to believe that that little dialogue was brought up by Mrs. Slade so she could finally tell Mrs. Ansley how she knows about her love for her, now deceased, husband. Throughout the scene where Mrs. Slade is telling Mrs. Ansley about the letter she wrote and her knowledge of the two, I feel like Mrs. Ansley was very calm about the whole situation. We then come to realize why she is so calm. Mrs. Slade is throwing in Mrs. Ansleys face "Yes; I was beaten there. But I oughtn't to begrudged it to you, I suppose. At the end of all these years. After all, I had everything; I had him for twenty-five years. And you had nothing but that one letter that he didn't write." While Mrs. Ansley finally stikes back and says "I had Barbara."(555) It is then we realize Mrs. Ansley had an affair with Mrs. Slades husband and the outcome was the child. To Mrs. Ansley, she feels like even though her and Delphin only had that one night, she will carry him with her as long as Barbara is alive.
ReplyDeleteHonoria on the other had is the daughter of an alcoholic. Charlie, the father, wants so bad to have his daughter back. Since he is recovering from being an alcoholic and the mother died, Honorias aunt and uncle have been raising her. He feels like since she is growing up so fast, he will not be able to raise her up the way he wants. It states "the desire of putting a little of himself into her before she crystallized utterly,"(717). He then goes on to say "But if we wait much longerI'll lose Honoria's childhood and my chance for a home."(720). He wishes to bring Homoria baack home with him since he missed out on being her father for so many years due to being drunk all the time.
Both girls are some sort of prize for both Charlie and Mrs. Anlsey. The girls represent far more than just the daughters of main characters than their stories put them out to be.
Both Honoria from “Babylon Revisited,” and Barbara from “Roman Fever” are symbolic of personal triumphs or the need for triumph in other characters in their stories. The symbolism related to Honoria is in her name, which means honor. Charlie screwed up and getting his daughter, Honoria, back would be gaining his honor back. He claims “things have changed now” especially with himself (718). He needs Honoria to prove that his life has changed for the better, and he has triumphed over the sins he committed in his earlier years. If he loses Honoria again, he will “lose [his] chance for a home” (720). Honoria is both home and honor for Charlie. Without her, he will lose his purpose again and could lose himself in sin once more.
ReplyDeleteIn “Roman Fever,” Barbara Ansley, Mrs. Ansley’s daughter, is a symbol of Mrs. Ansley’s small personal victory in consummating her love with Delphin, her friend’s husband. Mrs. Slade claims that she “had [Delphin] for twenty five years” and Mrs. Ansley “had nothing but that one letter he didn’t write” (555). She still has the upper hand, with time on her side, but Mrs. Ansley cuts deep. When she says, “I had Barbara,” she isn’t just stating that she had a daughter too (500). She is proving that Mrs. Slade didn’t have everything. Mrs. Ansley and Delphin made Barbara. Therefore Barbara is power for Mrs. Ansley, and her only true memory of that night with Delphin.
In "Babylon Revisited", Honoria is the estranged daughter of the widowed Charlie, who was stripped away from him after his wife's death and taken in by his sister-in-law. He is strongly hinted to have been a heavy drinker and excessive spender while his wife was alive, frequently arguing with her and at one point leaving her locked outside of their home during a snowstorm, though he claimed he didn't know "she would arrive an hour later alone, that there would be a snowstorm in which she wandered about in slippers, too confused to find a taxi?" Context hints that he has since cleaned up his act and regained his wealth, saying "[he hasn't] had more than a drink a day for over a year" and "[he was] able to give [Honoria] certain advantages now," but even after his mistrusting sister-in-law agrees to return guardianship to him, he finds his reunion with her postponed, first by certain conditions she requests be met and later by her own illness." This, coupled with the following scene where he enters a bar and refuses when offered more than a single drink, leads me to believe that rather than the forgiveness of his past actions, Honoria may in fact symbolize his old self, and that their separation is actually what allows him to lead a sober and successful life.
ReplyDelete"Roman Fever" offers a much different set of circumstances, where two mothers engage in a verbal bout over the one's late husband. Mrs. Slade ultimately married Delphin, but it's heavily mentioned that Mrs. Ansley had romantic involvement with him prior to this, as shown when the former admits "Yes; I was beaten there. But I oughtn't to begrudge it to you...after all, I had everything; I had him for twenty-five years." Ansley's response, though, "I had Barbara", hints that her daughter was, in fact, conceived by her and Slade's late husband, in a way making her a symbol of Ansley's eternal advantage over Slade, as judged by her delivery of the line and quick exit after delivering it. This seems to draw a parallel between Ansley and Marion in "Babylon Revisited" as they both hold their guardianship over the late party's child as an advantage over Slade and Charlie, respectively, though their goals in doing this differ drastically.
In both "Roman Fever" and "Babylon Revisited," the treasured daughters represent prizes--beloved possessions that are undeserved but nevertheless desired. In the case of "Babylon Revisited" and "Roman Fever" Honoria and Barbara are the ideal daughters, angelic and brilliant. Mrs. Slade admittedly covets Barbara, this beautiful girl who is not hers: "And perhaps I envy you... I always wanted a brilliant daughter" (550). In the case of "Babylon Revisited," Charlie's sweet Honoria is also coveted by Marion, in a way, as Marion does not want to give up guardianship of her, whether due to her attachment to Honoria or, more likely, her resentment towards Honoria's father.
ReplyDeleteIn both situations, precious gifts came from imperfect, and arguably even sinful relationships. In the case of "Babylon Revisited," Charlie and Helen had a very dysfunctional marriage, which accumulated in him locking her out of their home and her wondering around the city in the snow and catching pnemonia (721). Nevertheless, in the midst of a failing marriage, they were blessed with a smart, capable, independent, beautiful daughter. In the case of "Roman Fever," the beloved Barbara was the result of a highly dysfunctional affair, unwittingly arranged by Mrs. Slade, the one being cheated on. So, one could argue that in both texts, the daughters symbolize grace emerging from bad situations and undeserved recipients.